Why Curiosity is the Key to a Loving Relationship

I wonder about why people who love each other fight so much. Caring is easy, but relating on a regular basis to people we care about can be very complicated and messy. Divorce rates are high, couples counseling offices can often be a revolving door. What’s the problem? In this episode, we explore something we know is often missing and can make a huge difference.


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Transcript

Adina Tovell  
Hi, this is Adina here with this week's episode of courage to be curious with Adina Tovell. And soon I'm gonna have to add her name to the logo and Amy Steindler. In full disclosure, Amy and I are having an absolutely fantastic time. And we're hoping that you are enjoying having change of our voices as well and exploring courageous curiosity. If you've been following courage to be curious for a long time back when it was wonder you're way too brilliant. There was a lot of me in there. And there was, you know, occasional interviews, but I really like the idea that there's like a lot of exchange going on here. And I think it's bringing a whole new richness Amy. So I am so incredibly grateful to have my curious counterpart here.

Amy Steindler  
What a delight. Thanks for having me back.

Adina Tovell  
So this week, we are in the Love Episode. So two weeks ago, when we were here in live, and we kind of foreshadow that we would be taking up what role do powerful questions, which is our theme for the month play in relationship and when we say relationship, and even though this is our love strand, we're not talking about just like spousal or, you know, to adults, an intimate relationship, we're talking about relationships. So relationships will be parents and children and relationships are between close friends relationships are between spouses or partners, relationships are really about two people who care deeply with each other. Because, as you may have noticed, we can get we can love those people. But those are also the places that we tend to get into moments of greater friction, right? You know, Amy, we does that happen, like we have more friction, sometimes with the people we love the most.

Amy Steindler  
Absolutely, you know, this is where our best work gets done, at least the potential for our best work gets done, you know, the people that we love and who love us, we trigger each other, we learn from each other, it's sort of the perfect storm.

Adina Tovell  
And if you listen to some of the spiritual guides, I mean, Marianne Williamson is the person who says this, there are other people people have heard me say this, that it's almost like the people who are closest to us in our lives are like chosen players on our game board of life to help us to be able to grow. And we're either going to stay in a place of resistance or frustration with people around things, or we're going to open the door to let them be guides for ways that we can meaningfully grow. And that and I think, is the fundamental reason why we keep advocating for that curiosity. Because when we get frustrated in relationships, when things keep coming up, and we keep having issues with the same person. No, it is not because of bad intent, people are not trying to hurt each other, in fact, quite the opposite. But it means it's like something is trying to present itself as an opportunity for growth here. And we'll either take advantage of that opportunity, or we'll hold up the stop sign and say, I am willing to keep coming back to the same suffering place again and again, and again, because I do not want to get curious about this.

Amy Steindler  
Yeah. I mean, I think that's what keeps us from really connecting, right? Is that that resistance to curiosity, that resistance to be open, I mean, it's a vulnerable place to be right to say, All right, I'm willing to take a look at my role in these patterns. You know, sometimes it's it's different issues with the same person, sometimes. It's the same issue with a bunch of different people, right? So you know, that the courage and the willingness to parse that out and say, okay, what's my role? What's mine? What do I What do I, you know, and she used Byron Katie's phrasing, you know, what, what is my, what is my business? And what is their business? and what doesn't belong to either one of us and to be able to sort of figure out who belongs to what so that we can actually heal and work on these issues together.

Adina Tovell  
I think one of the things that I almost think I couldn't say this enough in thinking about relationship work is I think what enabled me to get past just being angry or frustrated with somebody when they were doing something that was rubbing up the wrong way, was once I got a deeper understanding about the neuroscience, right, how our brain and how our minds work. And the more I delved into understanding that the more I came to realize that each person kind of was designed with a massive operating system, but it's not kind of like you know, Dell or Apple or something like that, where you put out you create, I'm looking at a MacBook Pro right now and every MacBook Pro has the same operating system, right? So if I'm on my MacBook Pro, I can operate it. And if I go over to my daughter's MacBook Pro I can operate, it all operates the same way. And isn't that nice and sweet and convenient. I think we live in total illusion of the fact that all humans have the same operating system. And so if I'm saying something, or I'm conveying something, and you're doing the opposite of what I want, well, if we have the same operating system, then then you must have will intent bad intent, because why else would you be doing that? Right. And that's the, the illusion, the fallacy that comes is that the beauty, the magnificence, and the challenge of it all is that we have 9 billion people on this earth, plus whatever and 9 billion different operating systems, Mother Nature must have been so freaking busy.

Amy Steindler  
And up to that, I mean, it's not just the neuroscience of how we operate, because that is different for everyone. And there are people who are differently wired, which makes it even more complicated. And if you think about it, we are all the product of our experience, every book we've ever read every song we've ever saw, every movie we've ever seen, every conversation we've ever had, every person we've ever bumped into, on the subway, I mean, all of that is different. When you add all of that out, no one has had exactly the same experience. And so we and we are busy all the time, speaking of neuro neuroscience, interpreting of that experience, and it's in that interpretation. And that perspective. And I know we talked about perspective a couple of episodes ago, but that's going to come up for me all the time. Because that's really what I tend to think about is what is the perspective I'm taking on this. So when we're, when we're in a relationship with someone when we're in a friendship, you know, can we be a little more conscious of the perspective that we're in? At the moment when someone is, let's say, annoying us? and wondering, you know, what happens if I change my perspective on it before I go and bite that person's head off? You know, is there is there someplace that I can shift that makes the annoying thing go away by itself without me wanting the other person to change? And I suspect we'll talk more about that, right? So you know, how we walk into a relationship or friendship, and expect other people to change to conform to a way that is more comfortable for us?

Adina Tovell  
Yes, right where we are. So I mean, a piece of cut out. But when we were talking about you were talking about all the different life experiences that we have. And the part about that is our brain literally, is a web of connections, and like almost like I think of them as wires. But the metaphor that came up that I've never actually used before, is no two spider webs are ever exactly the same. Right? You know, it's the function of where they are, how, you know, what, what twigs are they between and things like that, are they hanging from the doorposts. And then every spider is different. So there's no two spider webs that will ever be the same. If we think about the brain as having a massive network of connections, almost like wires there, you know, synapses, that they are fun. Over the course of us having all these experiences, smelling different things, watching different things, reading different things, and countering each one of them is like a web being woven. And they're all different. And so we have this illusion that when we're talking with each other, that we're actually, you know, communicating 100%. But here and I mean, it's a fascinating thing, because I love listening to Amy communicate, and Annie, that you think really differently than I do about some things. And I'm very present and aware of the fact that while you and I have very good communication. There, I'm only grabbing maybe about 70% like the I'm grabbing the essence of what you're saying. But what's informing what you're saying is all hidden, because it comes from a totally different place like your curiosity comes from a totally different place. Your experience with language comes from a totally different place. So that when you make comments, I understand it enough to be able to engage in a conversation with you, but I have no illusion that I am grabbing 100% of what you intend and what your experiences behind the things that you say.

Amy Steindler  
That is such an important point, right? So this is happening to everyone in there's so much that is not transparent and we're making assumptions at all times. And you know, most of the time, it's okay, right most of the time. You know, whatever lens you're seeing it through is enough and it works and we understand each other and we see each other but there will be moments in this relationship and in any other where again, there's something doesn't quite make sense or something triggers something emotion that is not love and respect. And those are the ones that are really interesting, like what's going on here? You know, what am I missing? What am I interpreted in a way that feels painful to me? Because then, you know, bring us our relationship as an example. I don't think, and this is because we're in a business and a friendship kind of relationship, not a romantic one. But, you know, there's there's never been a moment where I've doubted the positive intention. But everything that happens between us comes from a place of positive intent. And I think we're really lucky to have that. And I think, you know, that's how most relationships I don't know, I'm making the thought most relationships might start, unless you're someone who you know, is constantly on guard. So I'll tell a quick story about a neighbor that I had had. And I may have told the story before, so forgive me, but it just sticks with me. And her worldview, and her experience was such that anyone she came in contact with, even initially, she felt like they were there to in her words, screw her over. So she behaved in a way that kept people at a distance. And that since she was assuming they were screwing her over, she was always mad at them, like initially and angry and dismissive and contemptuous. And so people naturally just wanted to screw her over, because it's like, who cares, right? So when we have to think about how are we entering into this thing? Are we entering into it saying, I'm going to be open? And I'm going to assume positive intent? And I'm going to bring my own positive intention? Or am I going to come in completely armored up, because my experiences such and, you know, we have to say, what, what happened to this woman, that over the course of the 50 or 60 years that had gone by, created that kind of perspective for her?

Adina Tovell  
Yeah. You have not told that story. So good on you that you brought it up here. And I think the point that you've made there is what are we bringing what's behind what we're bringing to the table in any relationship? And what difference does it make what we assume about the other person in relationship, and especially when we're in romantic relationships, I think one of the things that's so fun about romance in the beginning, and same might be true differently, but for children, but let's stick with romance right now is that when we're first getting to know each other, we're always assuming positive intent. And we're all actually bringing positive intent because we want to get to know the other person, we want to bring our best selves, we actually work extra hard. And that's our natural response to newness, right? There's chemicals that are involved, oxytocin is flowing, it's bringing us into deeper connection, and we want to be loved and liked, we want to put on our best, you know, best dress kind of thing. And then over time, once there's an accumulation of experiences, and maybe little hurts along the way, oh, they said something that was a little bit of a hurt or something. And particularly, and this is why I think this episode is going to be so important, Amy is when things come up. And we don't know how to manage them. Well, very often, either, things start getting swept under the proverbial carpet. I know many, many people, including myself, who had really carpets with like huge mounds, like I wonder how the carpet could even like, round anymore, there were such a mounds of things that had just been swept under it right. And we either sweep things under the carpet, because for the sake of keeping peace in the relationship, like this is a loving relationship. I don't want it to erupt into negative things. So we sweep something under the carpet, and we just keep going. So we have that response to it. Or we get fed up and we battle about things until we battle battle battle, we hurt, hurt, hurt, we invoke more injury on to each other in the process, which then makes us feel less safe. So the next time something comes up, we're much more likely to question the positivity of the intent behind something, because we've heard each other and not had a productive way to resolve that hurt.

Amy Steindler  
Yes, yes, yes. And you know, we have to think about amygdala hijack. Right. What is getting toward fear center? Is it you know, this fear of conflict that we want to run away from, you know, are we triggered in some other way that makes us want to come out fighting? You know, how do we how do we calm all of that down? And stay curious in the moment rather than reactive, but that feels like what you're talking about, you know, how do we how do we Stay in any relationship and avoid those triggered way can't avoid them. But you know, recognize those triggered moments and say, How can I switch from? Like, I'm going to get in a fight here, or I'm going to go get the, you know the broom and sweep it under the rug, because I can't deal with those. And change that into Oh, wait a minute, something just happened. Isn't that interesting? What was?

Adina Tovell  
So one of the metaphors I like to use in response to this amazingly beautiful question you just asked, right? How do you do that? Like, how do we stay out of either just avoidance or the triggering back and forth and firing and things like that? How do you do the alternative, which we're suggesting is curiosity, right? How do we do that? So I always remember when I was a kid, depending on your generation, and when you're listening, there was a little TV show called The Jetsons right made George Jetson Jr, his wife, I promised I'd sing at some point. So here's my little ditty, it's not a show tune. But you know, I'm saying, Oh, boy. Exactly. And so George, when he would get into these like conundrums had two little characters, right, that would appear on either shoulder. And there was always one that was like, egging them on, right, egging them on to like, either do the thing that he you know, you shouldn't do like the bad boy thing or, you know, really get angry about something get fired up about it, the one who was like red and firing color that was always egging them on. And then the other one, I was just sort of sitting there with like, his arms crossed and doors, you know, kind of remember, and trying to keep him in a place of consciousness and keep him making better choices, right. So I like to say, you know, don't we all have these two, we have a part of us, that is going to be reactive, and almost like, just Yes, you poke me even a little bit, I'm going to give you a super big poke, or I'm going to run away, like stay out of the Poke or like poke harder. And so we have one voice that says, Don't let this happened to find some way to defend yourself, either by avoidance or by fighting. And then we've got this other voice that maybe we haven't strengthened a lot, like, maybe we haven't fed that other voice a lot. And that's the voice that enables us to be able to be in a situation that maybe feels uncomfortable or threatening in some way, but to stay in a place of consciousness. And I think one of the beauties about George Jetson, right, I mean, they put the two little characters there, so that we, as the viewers could see the battle on the outside, because if it were on the inside, it would be harder for us to view so they put it externally. But the externalization I always like to say to people, what if you could be in the moment, and watching yourself in the moment to, like, your higher consciousness self could watch you in that moment, and guide you and say, oh, they've just said something that feels really infuriating to you, you probably think you're gonna get a period back now and do this. But you know, that boy, that other part of ourselves that says you do have a choice here, you know, like, you've got a choice word, you could either like, you know, fire away here, or you could choose something else. And if we can, I think embrace and imagine that our higher consciousness can be externalized a little bit and be watching over us and giving us information, we might then be able to start to develop our capacity for different response.

Amy Steindler  
I love that. And it is a practice, right? When you say develop our capacity, it's if that happens through practice. So what's coming up for me, as you're talking is that, you know, we as a society have a lot of work to do in developing on emotional intelligence, we're not really, we're not always as emotionally literate as we could be. And I think that's part of the issue is that, you know, we're not good at naming emotions, we're not good at recognizing them in the moment. And I think that's a lot of what causes the tension and conflict. So for instance, if my husband is angry, even if he's angry at me, I don't have to take on his anger in the moment, I can step back and say, Wow, he's really angry. It's directed at me. You know, a, did I do something to, you know, the warrants that kind of anger, and if I did, then it's time for me to step back and say, Well, I'm sorry, I am so sorry. And if it's not, then I need to let him just have his anger and not fix it. And I'm not, you know, try to fight back against it because it's not mine. And so what I find happening a lot is that I'm stepping back and saying, I'm just gonna let him have his emotion because that's it. He needs to feel that fully, and it's not mine. And there have been times when I have been angry, and he's trying to stop it, and then trying to stop it, because he's uncomfortable with it, it makes it worse. Right? Stop trying to stop me from being angry. Cuz I haven't, I'm not done. It takes me 90 seconds, and it's only been 30. So give me 60 Give me my other 60 seconds because I have to work through that. So I think, you know, part of the process as we as we move into, you know, how do we, how do we ask the questions? How do we get curious, is also learning how to question in the moment or what's happening here? You know, Whose is this? You know, is this something I've done that I need to make amends for? Or is someone expressing something that I need to hold space for that I need to be there for, then I need to just hear and see them. In the last episode you mentioned, you know, we just want to know that we're known or seen or heard. And so when things do get ratcheted up on the emotional scale, that's the time to say, Alright, let me make them make some space to see this person and hear them before I come in guns blazing, to either fight it, or, you know, make it stop, because I'm uncomfortable.

Adina Tovell  
That's me. That's why Amy is the emotional intelligence coach. Something that you said that I want to highlight? Or maybe you hinted at it, and I wanted to stretch it out a little bit further is, you talked about the person's emotion. And I'm wondering if we're able to distinguish the person's emotion from the person, could we have an easier time holding that space? When we link them together, that the emotion is the person at that moment, then it's really hard because this person is important to us. And if this person is hurting us, there's that's bad. Or if they're angry, that's bad. And if we could see how that the emotion is separate is a piece of the person, but it's not the person. And that moment, I wonder if that would be helpful to us to being able to hold that space better.

Amy Steindler  
That is spot on. I am angry versus I feel angry, right. So we go back to language and how important for languages. So understanding when when we're having our own emotions to be able to separate that for ourselves, because that's what we have to start. So can I say I feel happy? I feel angry, I feel infuriated. I feel unseen. I feel right. Instead of saying, No, nobody sees me. Nobody understands me. I feel misunderstood. That's a whole different level. So I think you're spot on.

Adina Tovell  
Yeah. And so when we were kind of thinking about I know, one of our things is that how do we could we take these moments in our most precious relationships, see the moments of friction, not as signs that we have a bad relationship, not as signs that we're falling apart, or that we should never been together? Or that you hate me if I'm thinking about my daughter, or kids or something like that, that you hate me or that you don't care about me. So if I could take all of those assumptions and toss them to the side, and I could say, oh, there is an experience of anger, frustration, sadness, you know, upset happening right now. That's totally different. Okay. It's just something that's happening. It's not like personal. It's just something that's happening right now. These are normal things that happen to people, people who love each other, there is anger, there is sadness, there is frustration, there's all a disappointment there is all of those things, these are normal experiences for humans. And then then if I can, if I can take on both of those beliefs, then it's not such a far stretch to say let me get curious about it. Let me know what's causing this right now. Like, okay, you're having that you're feeling frustrated? I wonder what's causing that frustration?

Amy Steindler  
Yes. And it sounds like you're talking about one of my favorite Bernie brown phrases, which is normalizing discomfort. It is normal to feel uncomfortable when things like that are going on. And when we normalize that we're not so anxious to get rid of it and stop it must stop immediately. That gives us the space to ask the question. So what you're saying is, you know, let's identify it, articulate it, have some words for it. And then we can start to ask the questions.

Adina Tovell  
I was recently talking with somebody about those emotion charts. Sometimes you I used to Do them in doctor's offices or in kids classrooms and things like that, that would have a chart, I made the name of like 30 different emotions, because I do think we have a little bit of an emotional literacy and literacy problem, as you pointed out before in that we don't have names for things. Most of us are, I've just experienced, many people are very removed from their feelings world I was for a lot of years. And I would know what bad felt like. And I would know, a good felt like, but I couldn't give more nuanced. I couldn't identify those feelings in a more nuanced way, which made me less capable of negotiating effectively in relationship. And so I actually just talked to somebody about getting an emotions chart, so that we could do what you know, almost like we sent those kids to do in kindergarten, go point to what you're feeling right now go find like the face or whatever that says how you're feeling right now. Because then we can have a dialogue about it. So if you're listening, and you kind of have this awareness, maybe I or people in my family or people in my sphere are not as emotionally literate as we could be. And let's be helpful, go get yourself one of those emotion charts. You know, maybe we'll even link something in it, you know, a link to one that could be one of our favorites.

Amy Steindler  
It Well, you know, you're laughing I I actually have one that I use with most of my clients, right, almost every single one of my clients, the theme the emotions with the emotions wheel. And as you get further out on the wheel, the words get more and more nuanced. So you mentioned nuance, it's so so important. And what's interesting about handing someone that and saying, Tell me what you're feeling about that right now, is that they will pick five or six different words. So I think we want to also make people aware that when when we're feeling things, we're not only feeling one thing or another, there are some moments of just unbridled joy when there's nothing but joy, or when there's nothing but darkness. But for the most part, if you go around that field, people will pick five or six, on average, different emotions. So we know we're dealing with a lot of things. So my question for you is, you know, is that where we want to go? And I'm asking, I'm asking a closed ended question. So I know the answer for me, is that where are we it's not where we want to go. For our first question, you know, is, what is it that I'm feeling? All the things that I'm feeling before we go anywhere else is just to ask ourselves that one question, what are all the things I'm feeling?

Adina Tovell  
I love and I, I do I mean, I think that, you know, what am I experiencing right now? Because whether I'm the one who's in the space of feeling upset, or I'm on the other side of somebody else's feeling upset or whatever other nuanced feeling they're having, checking in with myself, I think it's a beautiful first step. And is I think what naturally happens now is okay, what's happening right now, because I'll have to first detect, oh, I'm feeling a little threatened right now, or I'm feeling a little accused right now, or I'm feeling a little sad about that right now. And having that awareness and that labeling of it. Now, as you said, kind of normalizes it in a way like, oh, okay, I'm in that emotional experience. Now, I can take a next step, rather than drowning in the experience, because it feels so badly. As soon as I put an appropriate, accurate label to it, then it's like, oh, okay, that's one of those things, right. And now, what do I do when that happens? Now I can move on to the next step.

Amy Steindler  
Yes, absolutely. And I think we also have to, you know, layer in understanding of which emotions we think are acceptable and which we don't, right. So we are judging emotions in ourselves and other people. That's, that's a red flag, right? That's gonna, that's gonna help the process. Because we have to be able to say whatever that person is experiencing is okay, whatever, I'm experiencing this. Okay. So what okay to experience anger.

Adina Tovell  
So one of the things we want to get to in this episode, because this is part of our month long exploration of the power of questions is we want to get to this place. What are some of the powerful questions we can ask? Or how do we use powerful questions in relationship? And so on our path there one more step I want to make. And then I want to go into that really directly, is the courage piece. That I almost think right, the closer and more significant the relationship, the harder it feels, the scarier it feels, the more courage it requires to engage in this process. Why is that Amy?

Amy Steindler  
Well, you know, vulnerability, it's that open heart, it's that you know, if I reveal myself to you, I could be hurt. And so you know, the practice and the and the bill are, you know that the preparation for it has to do with our own feelings of resilience? You know, do I have someplace I can go someone I can talk to some way some tools, some methods, some process of, you know, recovering from her. You know, I think we'd love to protect ourselves from it. And there are some hurts that we absolutely need to protect ourselves from. And we can and there are some that that we don't worry or we can

Adina Tovell  
something How?

Amy Steindler  
How much do you trust yourself to be able to recover?

Adina Tovell  
I think it's so important, because what I see come up a lot with the couples that I work with, is, if you're supposed to be in my safe place, my safe landing pad. And then you're also this place where things feel hard or prickly or threatening, am I going to lose my safe place? And so one is there's this like concern and worry about losing my safe landing pad. On the other hand, sweeping it under the carpet doesn't make it more safe to. And then the other pieces that I think that there is always this little bit of that fear in there, that if we go toward this thing, you know, can I trust you to still love me on the other side of it? Can I trust you to love me as much or as fully as you do now?

Amy Steindler  
Well, that's one of those things we can't control. Right. So So that's an interesting question. Why are we asking ourselves that question, but I want to go back to, you're supposed to be my safe landing path. And I want to I want to flag that because in my view, from my perspective on relationships, and on a home, you know, where the safe landing POTUS.

Adina Tovell  
It's pointing right here into her own heart.

Amy Steindler  
Yeah, it's right here. And you know, if you listen to Reno's podcast with us, a couple of episodes ago, you know, Rena was talking about, you know, I found my beloved, and she is me, you know, she is. And I think that's so important to remember that safety and security do not come from outside, they do not come from outside. And yet, we consciously are to continually seek it there. Yeah, so let's flag that for everyone and say, if you're going to go into this practice, remember that there is no one that can 100% all the time to be your safe landing pads for you.

Adina Tovell  
And what you just were you just hit the nail on the head, as you always do a right is that our capacity, the amount of courage that we can demonstrate and going into these hard places is often proportional to the degree in which we have already cultivated that safe landing pad inside of ourselves.

Amy Steindler  
Boom, boom, I wonder if you could say that again. Just press. Right, okay. Everybody, rewind that, go back about 30 seconds and listen to that. Again. That's, that's that sounds so resonant to me. Yes,

Adina Tovell  
yes. And to paraphrase it again, right, that the degree to which we have both the capacity and willing to get courageous in those moments is proportional to the degree that we have found that safe landing pad inside of ourselves to that we can trust ourselves, to withstand whatever might come on the other side of it, and still, you know, feel strong and feel steady in ourselves, when we don't feel strong, and that it compromises significantly compromises our capacity to be courageous in relationship, which, by you know, also then compromises how strong that relationship is going to be over time.

Amy Steindler  
Absolutely. And this brings us to the second part of your point, which is, you know, will you still love me as much? You know, and then the question I have is, you know, why is that so important, you know, this is that that whole, you know, I want to please someone else, I want someone to feel a certain way about me. So therefore, I have to behave in a certain way in order for them to feel that way about me. And I'm telling you after, I mean, I didn't get married till I was 39 for a reason, because I spent my 20s trying to be that person that I thought the other person wanted and needed me to be in order for them to love me. So I think that's a really important point that you brought up. You know, we're so afraid to show ourselves because we think we lose someone's love. Well, if we show ourselves when they don't love us, we didn't

Adina Tovell  
really have it anyway.

Amy Steindler  
Okay, that's that's good to know. Right? It's good to know that you have some there's something some reason that you can don't tolerate the parts of me that you can't tolerate, you know, there are always going to be those parts.

Adina Tovell  
So I want to bring something up. And this will lead us directly into how we use curiosity here. But, you know, this idea that we feel vulnerable of, will you love me and we go into people pleasing, right? I mean, what I have seen in relationships is that people pleasing is an incredible relationship killer. You know, that the more we try, like, we're almost trying so hard to make everything okay. Well, one is we're typically diminishing ourselves, you know, we're giving away parts of ourselves every single time we just try to please someone else. If, you know, we stopped looking at ourselves, we're just like, I'm going to give I'm going to give I'm going to try to please I'm going to try to play is, so we're trying to make ourselves Okay, we're trying to make them okay. We're typically diminishing ourselves. The other thing we're not doing when we're people pleasing. And I recently used this metaphor with somebody I said, it's like paying playing pin the tail on the donkey all the time. You have a blindfold on all the time, but you just keep swirling around trying to stick tails everywhere. And it's like, I hated that game, right? It's a thankless game, like, do you really want to play pin the tail on the donkey head with a blindfold on for your entire life and relationship. But when we enter people pleasing, and we don't get curious, that's what we are doing.

Amy Steindler  
That's a great metaphor. And you know, you know, who loves the people pleaser? Yeah. But narcissists, right, the Narcissus love the people pleaser. So you know, be careful what you attract. Exactly. If you really, if you really go too far on that you're gonna be with someone that is not going to really care what you think or what you

Adina Tovell  
want it all. So. So here's where I see the gap for people. So if I'm a listener, I'm like, okay, so you're telling me don't people, please and arguments are okay. But I don't want to spend like my whole relationship in an argument with somebody. And, you know, I can't go around make doing things to make them happy. So what are you telling me? Like, that's what I would be asking you at this point. I was like, what, what do I do to women? Like, oh, what's going on here? I like actually suggesting that we should do. And so I want to go to that. And I want to go to, you know, what does courageous curiosity look like in relationship that is not about saying we should be fighting all of the time? Because that's, you know, how we grow? Or that you know, and the people pleasing? You know, that we don't want people doing either of those. So what is the alternative to either of those? And how does that actually work? Because that's what I want to insert here that courageous curiosity is what is in the middle? And I would say is, what is it the test center of my personal target board?

Amy Steindler  
Absolutely. And I think that developing that skill, and it is a skill to, again, we talked about it earlier, just take a step back, see what the situation is for what it is, you know, a little bit of reality checking here, you know, is this person really attacking me? Or are they angry about something? And what is the situation? What am I experiencing? So if we say if we say, All right, here's the thing to do, the first thing to do is to assess right, what's happening here? And what am I feeling? So where do we go from there? If that's if that's question number one, what am I experiencing? What am I feeling?

Adina Tovell  
Then? That my second? My second question is? What are they experiencing right now? What am I noticing about their experience right now? And let's give that a name to, right. I mean, I name my feeling and experience. But I also I, you know, I know, Tommy, what do you think we've got the order off? Because we didn't pre plan our order here. But I think the other piece is to say, you know, what's happening in their experience? And let's, as I said, separate the experience from the person. But what's happening in their experience right now?

Amy Steindler  
And how do you know? How do you know what's happening in their experience?

Adina Tovell  
I don't have to get it correct. I just have to know what I'm experiencing. Right? So I have to say, you know, in the sense, and I'm going to use an example, I'll invite you to use them with maybe your husband, I'm going to use them with my daughter just so people can see it and two different lenses. You know, so my daughter comes home as when she was a teenager often did and moms have this experience with teenage girls very often. I have two clients right now who are like, going through this. So I'm using I'm here to help them here too, is so my daughter comes out walks through the door. And next thing I know, she's firing something at me about well, why didn't you do this for me? You were supposed to do this. This happened at school and she's like, suddenly firing away about things that I seemingly did and had no idea I was even in the middle of the argument in her head, right. So the first thing that's happening for me is like, wow, I feel like I'm having somebody who's firing an auto semi automatic weapon at me right now. Okay, this is like what's happening right now and I'm starting to feel myself get a little prickly and Then I'm also looking at her. And if I can say, Wow, it looks like she came through the door with a lot of buildup and it's coming firing at me. I've just kind of very objectively narrated this without labeling my daughter anything, huh? And without even saying she's, like angry at me, because I know that sometimes it can be like the child comes through, like, why don't you pack me that awful lunch and like, you know, and I needed this and you didn't have that ready for me. I mean, we've all like I've had that for sure, you know, walk through the door, I had no idea that anything was going on. And next thing I know, I've been accused of five things, right. And so in that moment, if I can sort of say, oh, something's happening, she's experiencing something right now it is causing her to fire this semi automatic weapon at me, I'm here I'm on the other end of it feels a little bad to have the that rifle, that barrel right in my face. And now I've at least assessed the situation in a really objective way. Because at this point, I can either start putting up my shields or I can, you know, start firing back at her I can make those choices, you know, or I can take this step back, as you've said, and say, okay, she's firing away. That's not mine right now. And nor is it mine, all of the things she's firing about, this is an experience that she's having. And can I give her the space to have it right now, without letting it seep in to me. And that's a really, really, really hard thing to do. I don't say it like, it's easy, like, it took a lot, a lot of practice. Because I went head to head with my daughter all the time, for a long time her dad went head to head because I had a really, really strong willed kid, she is so strong willed. But we've all just learned to do it differently, and do the dance a little differently. And so now when that happens, I say Oh, and in fact, I just described it to a client, I said, Your daughter has like the little hormone demons. And sometimes they sit and kind of just like they're in hibernation or taking a nap. And sometimes the hormone demons come out. And they are like having a huge freakin frat party. It looks like total chaos. It's not your daughter, it's her hormone demons who are coming out to play and you can decide do you want to go battling her hormone demons? Or do you want to do something different? And are you battling somebody upset? Are you battling the six things that might have happened at school to trigger off all of the things that my daughter has just decided are wrong in her world? And so she's now throwing out the ones that applied to me, because in her head, the world is wrong in this moment. But if I can name it, here's my experience. Here's what she seems to be experiencing? What are my options? That's where usually I go.

Amy Steindler  
Interesting. And I think, you know, the naming of it for ourselves, is the only accurate naming we're going to get. Right? And so you're you're, you're still making an assumption about her, which is probably right. And the only thing that you can probably say is she's firing a lot of stuff at me. Right? That's really the only thing that you can say. So you can't know. Okay, she had a bad day, or, you know, you can't really know anything. So I think I just want to point that out. But the only thing that you said was what was true what was visible on the on the videotape. Right? So this is where we thought we separate back from story.

Adina Tovell  
Well, I think it's on the videotape, that she's upset where that comes from, or who it's sad, or whatever it is.

Amy Steindler  
Right? He looks upset, sudden anger. And you know, she fires, and she's fired. That's, and I think that's the important lesson. And that's for everyone else. I'm curious now, I'm like, wow, I wonder what's behind the firing and the upset. Right? So that's where the Curiosity comes in. And that's so what's so brilliant about this process that to say, All right, let me let me just stop there. That's as far as I'm gonna go. I'm gonna say what's happening to me. Wow, I feel like I'm being shot up. A lot of things are coming at me from that direction. Words are coming at me. And she looks upset. That's,

Adina Tovell  
and then it's interesting, because sometimes what I do is go into what you described. Again, I think it might have been the live episode a couple episodes ago that we talked about is I might start throwing out some questions to see if any of them are resonant, or to see if she's ready to answer any of them because she may not be ready in which case, that's okay too. So I might say, you know, honey, it seems like you're really upset What's going on? Again, I don't know whatever. It seems like you're really upset. I'm making my observation. What's going on. I don't fall into the trap of defending myself about the lungi pact or whatever it is. It seems like you're really upset. What's going on. Or it might be, honey, are these that? Is there something here you want to talk about? Or is this? Or do you just really need to let all this out right now. So I acknowledge that like, maybe sometimes you just need to let it out. And the funny thing is, is like, anybody who's listening to this, who knows me, well will know that my daughter actually learned that so well. But now when she picks up the phone to comment, she's like, this is just a moment, I'm going to say what I need to say, and you just need to listen, or this is the moment I'm going to share this. And then I want your input. Like she actually gives directions now. So I know exactly what I'm supposed to do to get it right. So it's awesome.

Amy Steindler  
Brilliant. That's so smart. It's part of a design relationship. Right? Everyone says, Alright, here's what I need for you right now, cod wouldn't be a perfect world, if everyone would do that. I think

Adina Tovell  
so. Like, it seems to make it so much easier to me. But so you know, or in that moment, I can say, Wow, she's really got the gun, you know, firing at me. I'm sort of here I have not had maybe I haven't had my great day myself, you know, and maybe the best thing for me is to remove myself and I can get curious, like, what do I need here? What do I have the capacity for right now? And I might say to her, honey, it seems like you're really upset, or you've got some things to say, I'm not really in the place to kind of be taking it in right now. So I'm gonna head upstairs and why don't we come back a little later. And if there's things you want to talk about, because I had to get curious about myself, too, I didn't. Sometimes I had the capacity to just say, Okay, I can be here, take the firing and see what you need, and be totally curious about you. But sometimes I don't have that capacity, because I'm compromised in some way. And I'm a very firm believer me in that hole, when you're on the plane, put the oxygen mask on yourself first, that if I know that I'm compromised in some way, take care of me first, don't try to pull it out and take care of somebody else. Because I guarantee you, I mean, I know myself, I'm going to screw it up, I'm going to end up in the battle, I'm going to end up fighting, I'm gonna end up taking it personally, I'm gonna end up screwing it up in a million ways. So instead of take care of myself first and say in that moment, being curious about myself is like, what do I have the capacity for right now? I don't really have the capacity to be the one who can show up and be conscious in this moment. So let me take myself out of here and say, I don't know what's happening. I know that right now, this isn't really a good moment for me to be on the other side of it. I'm going to head off. And if we need to talk about it, we can come back later.

Amy Steindler  
I love that. I think that's so important. And, again, it requires a bit of predefine. I think, because if I were to hear that, and I didn't know that that was part of our relationship, but that was within the structure of our relationship. I could get triggered by that. Maybe that's just me personally, thinking someone's refusing someone's refusing to help me. No, someone's refusing to be with me now. You know, I mean, something,

Adina Tovell  
I think that could happen. And I'm okay with that. I mean, I think people could very easily assume that. But the question is, do I go into the space continuing this space in a compromised way where I can't really be curious and open? Or do I not, and if they're get triggered about it, maybe that's just part of the natural unfolding. And so I've decided for myself, personally, I'm willing to let that other person feel triggered by my statement, because I got to put my oxygen mask on first, and I'm doing it in the best, most gentle way I can, even if it may not be received that thing. And then we can come back. So I do realize that some people could get triggered. And I've decided for me, I'm okay with that. Because right now, between the two of us, if I try to stay in it, when I can't, it's not gonna go well,

Amy Steindler  
no, I do. I think we're in violent agreement here, I think they the only point that I'm trying to make is if you are working on a relationship, and you really want to make it be present for each other, to design that in and say, you know, let's talk about what happens to us what we do as a couple or as Parent Child, in situations where I don't have the capacity to hold space for whatever it is that you need, when I can't be there for you. Right, when I can't be your safe landing pad. How are we going to do that? What are the words that I'll say? I will say, you know, I don't have the bandwidth right now to be fully there for you. Can we? You know, can I go upstairs and we'll meet again later. So what I'm suggesting is you take that a step further than you absolutely set those boundaries. And you set the boundaries for the boundaries, you know, how old the boundaries Look, what will it sound like?

Adina Tovell  
Right, and I think absolutely, and I have couples who they have like their proverbial reset button, you know, when they've kind of both not acted Well, they're like, what if we just do a rewind or do a reset and then they both agree to do a reset on something so that they can come back so I think you're I love it right? 100% right, that having pre designed cues and I with my daughter and I write she didn't just get to sort of giving me we talked about that. I said, Honey, it'd be so much better if you told me exactly what which role you want me to play right now. If you gave me my my What is it? There's no sign instructions that I could do this much better. So why don't you give me the stage instructions? And then I'll know. And so yes, doing it by design is amazing. At the same time, then, you know, going back and saying, you know, what was happening for you there? Was that about me? Or was that about something else, because I want to get to the part of this conversation to where we do talk about like getting courageously curious. Notice that I didn't ask about the lunch. And I didn't ask about the thing I didn't buy for her own time, I didn't ask about any of those things. Because that's actually the distraction, people don't get that violently upset about, you know, the wrong lunch. And I think that's an important thing to know that most of the stuff we fight about are just sort of like, it's the thing, the object that is absorbing whatever the bigger experience is, and it's coming through that way. But it's not actually about the thing. People don't quite like that about lunches or things like that. They fight because there's some other bigger experience. And it just comes out in those terms. And so when I go to her, I don't, I'm not going to ask her about the lunch, I'm not going to ask about the thing I'm by, I'm going to say, you know what was going on for you there, you know, I'm really I would like to know, and you know, if there was something that was about me, I'd like to know about that if there was something else that was going on. And in doing that, I feel like I'm the attempt is to open up the conversation, but it's also attempting to help her become more conscious and self aware of herself.

Amy Steindler  
Well, that's that's the key, right? And I think this brings us back to the emotion wheel, right? This is, you know, let me identify and articulate what I'm feeling and ask you to do the same. In order for me to see you and understand you and hold the space for you or be your safe lambing path. Help me understand what it is that you're feeling. And so that's when you go back to her. That's basically what you're asking what, what are you feeling? What's your experience?

Adina Tovell  
So if I could, you know, if I were to say, Oh, my gosh, I want every single couple I've ever worked with, or will work with or have worked with to listen to this episode, right? You know, I would want them to sort of take in, what you just said is that if we could stop fighting about the dishwasher, or the laundry, or the toilet seat, or the toothpaste, or all of those things, because those are not actually argument worthy things. And they're usually just masquerading or serving as covers for the other things that are more important. And if we could stop and say, you know, what's really happening for you what's really going on? What might not be feeling right for you? And if we could answer beyond the toothpaste, cap, and beyond the toilet seat, recognizing that those are not really argument worthy things. And that's not really what's causing our hurt, and we could be willing to look a little bit more deeply, then I feel like people could start having conversations that would meaningfully grow their relationships.

Amy Steindler  
Absolutely. What you're saying is, what I'm hearing you say is that we are all responsible for own emotional states. In that way I am, I am asked to take responsibility for how I feel, right, the toothpaste is not responsible for how I feel. The wrong sandwich is not responsible for how you feel. And I think that's, that's again, you know, as we're, we're designing these relationships and talking about how do we have a successful relationship? How do we show up fully and own what's ours, the biggest thing we have to own is our own emotional state, our own emotional response, there could be a triggering event. I mean, there's Martha Beck calls it clean pain and dirty pain, like clean pain is someone dies of a heart attack, you're sad, you miss them, you're grieving, you're despondent, it hurts. Dirty pain is I shouldn't let him eat that bacon, it's all my fault. You know, I should have made him go and get as you know, go to as cardiologists sooner. So the stories that we layer into the pain that make it kind of dirty, so we want to separate those things and say, you know, I don't want to own putting the wrong sandwich in the in the back. Because that's not what's happening here. I will, I'm feeling a little surprised and, you know, confused about why why the automatic weapon is aimed my way but, you know, I can kind of work through that by saying, okay, I feel it. Let me let me check in with this other person to see why they're so not just armored up but on the attack.

Adina Tovell  
And I The last thing I would want to bring, you know, as we're coming to the end of this session is, you know, in the cart deck that we have, we have a love with the courage to be curious cardiac, right and that deck is divided into two parts. Half of them are questions that get to self love, like cultivating and becoming aware of, you know, the love of self, and the other are How can I love somebody else? Well, and the way those questions were designed, was their phrase like this, like, what does my partner need when they feel most sad? You know, what are the three things that make my partner or the person I care about? It's actually phrase the person I care about, feel most loved. We make a lot of assumptions, we have this grand illusion that if there's love between two people that there's also completely accurate mind reading between two people, right? we equate those two. I remember the first coach I worked with, like, I think I even had one session with her. And when she pointed that out to me about my relationship with my dad. So she basically said, so you expect that he is reading is to be a mind reader and know exactly what you're thinking and feeling so he can respond in exactly the perfect way. And I was like, Huh, yes, I guess that's what's actually happening. And so we equate love with expertise and mind reading. And unfortunately, I need to say, because those spider webs are so different, and the operating systems vary from person to person, is that there is no mind reading, even in the closest of relationships. And maybe I want to postulate, that's even a good thing. Because if we could feel after a year or two years or five years that we knew everything about that person, they wouldn't be interesting anymore. So let's keep them interesting. But interesting means that we have to stay curious about them. And the questions in that deck are specifically designed to what what might I be asking to understand the invisible things that are part of my person that I care about operating system? Because as I learn more about those things, then yes, I can show up in ways that are really going to help to match the or be supportive of those and be loving in ways to feel loving to them.

Amy Steindler  
Absolutely, yeah. That whole mind reading pieces is the real head scratcher. I mean, I've I've heard people say, Well, he should know, he should know that. I don't like that. He should know that. I don't want that. And that, you know, that idea of someone should know something. And if that's what's triggering you, that's on you, my friend. Not on now. Right? It's up to you to be able to be honest, and say, here's what I need in those situations.

Adina Tovell  
So I'm gonna ask the same question I asked at the end of the live searches, Episode, which is, if there was one thing like one nice, juicy, beautiful idea you would like people to take from this session as they think about getting courageously curious in relationships? What would that be?

Amy Steindler  
I want them to take away that responsibility for their own emotional states, right? Get your get your emotions, charts, and use them just know how you're feeling. Because that's where it all starts. If you know how you're feeling what you're feeling, and you're separate that I think your point earlier was so important. It's not who you are. It's what you're feeling in that moment. And so be able to separate those things. I'm not an angry person. We're just feeling angry right now. Yeah,

Adina Tovell  
beautiful. And I think you know, for me, it builds on what you've just said is that if we can experience ourselves both as in situations, but also as observers of that situation, then we can become really skillful, we can start to become courageously curious, because we're not so engulfed by the experience, we have a little bit of appropriate distance to be able to observe the experience and therefore to make more conscious mindful and curious choices.

Amy Steindler  
I love and I think the intention to be curious the intention to sit with it and think, you know, what is the question that I could ask that could help me know this person better or helped me see them more clearly.

Adina Tovell  
So we are in the month of thinking about the power of questions. And if you are getting even the least bit curious, you can find out more about these card decks we've been talking about. On the courage to be curious website at courage to be curious, calm, you can also find them at live lead, love courageously.com and begin to play with your own sets of questions. And I also want to invite you back for the final episode. We've been talking this month on the power of questions we've been talking about the fact that we are having the authors of ask powerful questions, create conversations that matter. Last week you heard from one of the authors will wise in our leadership episode, and next week we are going to have Chad Littlefield who is a hoot. I mean, I can't I I've watched him on videos had a little bit exchange but full of energy, a master of creating opportunities for connection and in ways that really matter. So I am super excited to be on with him. Amy will be on for that episode as well, we are going to be having a lot of fun playing. So a great one to watch on YouTube if you get the opportunity and if you're still reading the book, maybe you didn't have an opportunity to finish it before will came on but you now have you want to send me a question that you want me to ask of Chad, then go ahead and send it to me at info at courage to be curious.com. And thank you for continuing to listen to courage to be curious with Edina Tavel the ways that you can help this show to grow are by reviewing it on iTunes. And by sharing it with friends and family. They can become part of our community on Facebook, courage to be curious page, follow us on Instagram. Please make sure that you're bringing the people that you care about who you feel like would really resonate with the messages that we're sharing. We love that word now and come and share it with them. So thank you, Amy for again, being part of this dynamic conversation. love being here with you.

Amy Steindler  
Thanks, love being here with you.

Adina Tovell  
And we'll see you again next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai